ACCP Discussion About
Foods and Fasting in Pregnancy
Here’s an (almost) uncut discussion we had on the email list for the Association of Christian Childbirth Professionals. It’s pretty much uncut and unedited, and just our “educated opinions”. Please read the whole thing so you can see where people answered or corrected the initial information given. Enjoy! Got Feedback? Let us know!
Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:46:05 -0500
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
Hi everyone. Marci, I've been reading through all the material on the Blue
Ribbon Baby site, and I really appreciate all the work you've put into it. I
have noticed a few typos, would you like me to email them to you personally
or have you already seen them?
Now at the risk of sparking discussion/debate on the list (is it me or have
some of you also been bored on the list lately... <g>) I have a few
observations to make. 
First off, I agree with Dr. Brewer that MTLP
is a disease of malnutrition
and I tend to recommend his work to other ladies. However, I do have a few
notes on his diet.
>One quart (4 glasses, 8 oz. each) or more of milk. Any kind will do: whole
>milk, low fat, skim, powdered, or buttermilk.
There are many sources, all Christian, that have convinced me that "any
kind" WON'T do. Shonda Parker (Mommy Diagnostics), Sue Gregg (The Busy
Woman's Breakfast Book), and Rex Russel (What the Bible Says About Healthy
Living) are all Christians who have researched good nutrition and health.
And all 3 of them say the same thing about milk: God gave us milk as a food,
and mankind has ruined it as a source of good nutrition by fiddling with it.
Pasteurization destroys most of the food value of milk by depleting it of
vitamins and enzymes. Homogenization is a KILLER. God made milk so
beautifully, so that the fat globules were large and washed right through
our systems. You could easily pick the fat globules out by skimming off the
cream and shaking it into butter. In the process of homogenization, the fat
globules are beaten into a microscopic pulp. This is what makes milk a
"no-no" in the fight against heart disease... man has tinkered with a food
God meant for our health and made it into an artery-clogging and hardening
toxin. The little tiny fat globules which supposedly make the milk more
aesthetically pleasing to sinful man can now (instead of passing through
undigested) be absorbed into the bloodstream to wreak havoc on the body.
It is impossible to find raw milk for human consumption unless you have a
cow in your backyard. But even without all the vitamins and enzymes, milk is
still high in protein and calcium and vit D, so I do drink pasteurized milk
while I search for a source of raw milk. However, NON-homogenized milk is
actually pretty easy to find-- it was available in my little Colorado city
of 100,000 and here in Austin at health food stores and "mainstream" stores.
Look for the stuff in glass bottles with the cream on the top. Then you can
also use a turkey baster to pull the cream off the top and make your own
butter (it takes about 15 minutes of shaking it in a Tupperware...)
>Two eggs.
Likewise, God gave us eggs for food and we've gone and done as much as we
can to make them nutritionally void.
>Eggs make a quick breakfast, and they contain 7 grams of high-quality
>protein each. Each egg contains all the building blocks of life - enough to
>create a complete chicken!
They do, when they are freshly-laid nest eggs (fertilized). They DON'T when
they are from egg processing plants where chickens are cooped up in tiny
cages for their entire lives and roosters aren't on the scene. DO NOT think
that when you remove God's creation and intention that you will still get
God's benefits. The building blocks and enzymes are mostly destroyed when
the eggs are refrigerated. If possible, you should be using nest eggs,
fertilized, farm-fresh, that have not been refrigerated. When an egg has
never been refrigerated, it will keep on the counter top for weeks. (Of
course, you test them before you eat them... <g>)
>One or two servings of fish, liver, chicken, lean beef, lamb or pork, any
>kind of cheese.
I am convinced that God gave us some things for food, and some things *not*
for food. Some fishes are scavengers, their primary function --as created by
God-- to clean the waters of toxins and decaying matter. God, in his
infinite wisdom, instructed his people to not eat nor touch such detestable
creatures. The same is true of the other "unclean" meats-- science has come
to show that the meats God called "detestable" are in fact very unhealthy
for us. Rex Russel does a fantastic job explaining this in his book "What
the Bible Says About Healthy Living." (This book was available from
www.aimforbetterhealth.com for half price, but supplies were limited. You'd
have to email or call Robin to find out if she still has any left at $5.50
plus shipping.)
It is definitely worth considering by anyone who believes in God as creator,
to consider that He made some things for food and other things he made for a
different purpose, and it would be in our best health interests to learn the
difference.
The rest of his diet I would only add one thing to: Eat only those things in
the form that is *most* like its created form. For most fruits and veggies,
that would be raw (canned foods are never raw, most frozen foods are still
raw, but fresh is definitely best). And for all of them, ORGANIC. Free of
man-made pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers. MEAT should be ORGANIC as
well. Free of growth hormones (see "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About
Menopause" by Tom Lee, also available for half price at the URL listed above
if there are still any copies left) and free of antibiotics, having been fed
grain free of pesticides and other man-made chemicals.
One more thing.….
>"It is not healthy for the pregnant lady to go even 24 hours without good
>foods, salt and water...or one minute without oxygen."
In my study of fasting, health, and the Bible... and since I believe in the
complete Bible as God's word... I no longer believe this at all. Show me the
place where God's people were called to fast "except for the pregnant and
nursing women." I have now come to the belief that if fasting was part of
God's creation (and I believe it is) and is healthy for mankind, then it is
also healthy for women no matter what their reproductive status.
Amy, wife of Jeff
mom to Jacob (9/93), Markie (9/95), John Michael (1/97) and Bethany (12/98)
CBE, BE, Little Blessings Birth Services
and Keeper of My Home
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:52:18 -0600
From: Lynnette D Chambers <ldchambers@juno.com>
Thanks, Amy for putting this so well. Unfortunately many people won't be
motivated to find this stuff since it can be hard to get. I have the
advantage of living in a semi-rural environment so I can do something
about it. But, for those in a metropolitan area how are they to find it,
without spending a fortune on food. Do you know of any particular brand
names of un-homogenized dairy products, things that might be available
through a food co-op or Alfalfa's for example? Is non-fat dairy
considered OK then? I have been using non-fat dairy then adding EFA's to
it for fat. Next year I hope to grow my own chickens, store ones make me
sick. (I mean literally, not figuratively)
I would not recommend fasting to most pregnant women because they usually
don't eat very well, daily, and may be putting their baby and themselves
at risk.
Lynnette
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0500
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
>I would not recommend fasting to most pregnant women because they usually
>don't eat very well, daily, and may be putting their baby and themselves
>at risk.
This is true. I'd never recommend fasting to anyone... it's a personal
responsibility and decision. But if you are eating properly, the food God
gave us, then fasting should be a healthful part of your lifestyle if you so
desire it.
I know a way it's semantics, but isn't there a difference between
"recommending" and "educating"? We don't recommend how a woman should give
birth, but we do educate them on the options. Why can't we educate them
properly on diet and nutrition and even the possibility that fasting isn't
necessarily bad?
Amy, wife of Jeff
mom to Jacob (9/93), Markie (9/95), John Michael (1/97) and Bethany (12/98)
CBE, BE, Little Blessings Birth Services
and Keeper of My Home
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:44:30 -0700
From: "Marci O'Daffer" <xxxxx@xxxxx.net>
> Why can't we educate them
> properly on diet and nutrition and even the possibility that fasting isn't
> necessarily bad?
But if we educate them well, we also have to tell them that the best
research indicates that babies only get what we eat, and that if we
don't eat, our babies don't eat. I think we also have to consider that
a pregnant woman can hardly stand to fast - her appetite was given to
her by God as an indication that her baby needs food. If she is without
proper nutrition for a period of time, her baby - who is constantly
developing brain cells and nerves and such, even when she's not eating -
will have less than the amount of food it needs to grow. Her uterus may
contract, her body will tire easily, she may become nauseated and
vomit...these things don't really make sense within God's design...it
seems they would be an indicator - even to early Hebrew women under the
Law - that something isn't right if they don't eat. But then again, God
is in control of that fetal growth, and He is capable of protecting the
baby if the mother feels called to fast...but then again, he doesn't
always protect us from the consequences of our ignorance either (i.e.,
if we ignore the bodily signals he designed to tell us to eat
regularly). I'm totally rambling, just toying with this idea. I'll look
forward to hearing some more input...
Marci
--
Marci O'Daffer, CCE, CIMC
ICQ# 7715308
<>< The Kalico Family Network ><>
http://www.kalico.net
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:09:29 -0500
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
To: "Marci O'Daffer" <xxxxx@xxxxx.net>
CC: "Lynnette D Chambers" <ldchambers@juno.com>, <accp@onelist.com>
My favorite fast, which I suppose would be most appropriate (totally
appropriate?) for pregnant woman is a Pulse fast (Daniel fast) where I eat
nothing but pure water (loads of it) and a pulse that might be a lot like
what Daniel and his companions ate when they "defied" the king's court and
were found superior to the other boys eating the king's food.
I mix my Pulse myself (you can buy one made, but it's pretty expensive,
IMO). A handful of 7 -grain cereal (uncooked). A handful of cashews (roasted
but unsalted). A few spoonfuls of sunflower nuts (roasted but unsalted). 4
or 5 dates, sliced. A handful of raisins. Maybe a little cinnamon and
cardamom. I snack on it as I feel the need throughout the day. And drink
several liters of water.
Amy
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</accp@onelist.com></ldchambers@juno.com></xxxxx@xxxxx.net></mtnmama@geocities.com></xxxxx@xxxxx.net></mtnmama@geocities.com></ldchambers@juno.com></g></g></mtnmama@geocities.com>
pork
<em><font color="#0000ff" size="-1">[Ed. note: A.J. was a bit embarrased about his poor grammar in this post, but I liked it and left it alone. He's a very bright pastor and doctorate student whom we all respect. We also appreciate his sense of humor... ]</font></em>
Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 08:00:39 -0700
From: "Michelle & A. J." <ncc1700@juno.com>
Dear Friends,
I must speak up in defense of occasional pork consumers. True enough
about the fish. I grew up in a part of the country where catfish is
considered a great delicacy, but it is a scavenger fish and is biblically
unclean. I don't eat catfish, mostly 'cause I don't like the look of
'em. ('Cuse me while I slip into a Texas accent.) But today's pork,
farm raised, is lean, healthy meat. I can't eat most processed pork
(sausage, bacon, cooked hams) because of the preservatives they use (they
make me break out, yech!). But fresh pork, such as chops and tender
loin, I really like, and they're really lean. Today's farm raised pork
is typically free of the parasites that one had to watch for in the old
days (mostly tape worms). Just thought I'd throw that one in.
Soli Deo Gloria,
A. J.
(Who doesn't eat possum or armadillo, though.)
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:55:46 -0700
From: Marc /Cheryl Grenon <grenon@bc.sympatico.ca>
"Michelle & A. J." wrote:
> Today's farm raised pork
> is typically free of the parasites that one had to watch for in the old
> days (mostly tape worms). Just thought I'd throw that one in.
If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. ;o)
Read John Robbins, _Diet For a New America_. He goes into a great deal of
detail on
the methods used to raise all sorts of animals. Really makes you take a
good look at
the meat industry.
Cheryl
PS. My dh was in a chicken processing plant to do some work at one point,
and what
JR explained about the raising of chickens was right on.
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:00:58 -0500
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
Yeah, my brother worked at the Tyson plant in Arkansas for about six
weeks... that's all he could stomach. He got to where he couldn't come home
from work without feeling nauseated and to this day will not eat commercial
chicken (he'll eat chicken from someone he knows, though).
A.J., today's farm-raised pork may be raised differently than in ages past,
but in the Bible God calls pork detestable and equates it with feces. He
created pigs to clean waste up for cities. You can eat it if you want,
because we are no longer under the law... but for me and my house, we will
stick to the foods that God expressly declared to be clean for food.
Amy
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Wed, 00:31:10 -0500
From: Holly Sippel <mamasong@ici.net>
If someone has questions about fasting, I would suggest going to the
resources of world changers and campus crusade for Christ. Bill Bright has
a lot to say about fasting, none of which I have read but heard on the
radio. Sounds very sensible to me. The long and (mostly ) short of it is
that you should be taking good vitamin supplements and drinking lots of
fruit and veggie juices to keep up your strength, unless I have totally
messed up their message. Just had to add my $.02
Holly Sippel
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Subject: RE: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:53:50 -0600
From: "Connie Banack" <momcare@cable-lynx.net>
> 'em. ('Cuse me while I slip into a Texas accent.) But today's pork,
> farm raised, is lean, healthy meat.
I have to agree with this to an extent A.J., having grown up on a commercial
hog farm (with cattle and grain as well). Yet the food that any commercial
animal eats is not a very healthy diet, I would recommend (with any meat
animal) that you look for organically fed pork... like my parents did
towards the end of their hog raising days (they now are solely cattle
producers). All the hogs were fed were fresh water and all the fresh grass
and plants (and roots) they could eat and dig up. What a difference in their
smell and quality of pork! I always thought hogs were dirty animals until
you put them into a natural setting (outdoors in a large pen) and they are
the cleanest animals! They never eat or sleep where they defecate and *love*
to keep clean in rivers and lakes.
> A.J., today's farm-raised pork may be raised differently than in ages
past,
> but in the Bible God calls pork detestable and equates it with feces. He
> created pigs to clean waste up for cities.
Amy, could you show me in the bible where this is? I always thought God
created animals as a good thing, not to clean up after humans. Sorry, and a
little ignorance showing through here
Connie Banack,CD,CBE
Mother Care
Doula Services, Childbirth Education, Doula/CBE Catalogue
Mom to Eric (7) and Ryan (5), wife to Allan and due March/00
Camrose, Alberta, Canada
mailto:momcare@cable-lynx.net
http://www.cable-lynx.net/~momcare
---------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:17:06 -0700
From: "Vicki" <babylady@rockford.com>
> True enough
> about the fish. I grew up in a part of the country where catfish is
> considered a great delicacy, but it is a scavenger fish and is biblically
> unclean.
> A. J.
Are these fish still Biblically unclean? I thought the "unclean" food ended
with Peter's vision of the sheet that came down with all the animals and God
said all things could now be eaten.
Vicki, midwife in IL
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:47:00 -0400
From: "PrMechell Roberts Turner" <mrturner@vnet.net>
amen vicki. i grow my own chickens, want a goat and a cow - can't afford them
yet. and ya'll (some will) know i and my family are avid hunters and
eat what we shoot. will not have possum or armadillo ( i did grow up in
Florida - armadillo is "possum on half shell"). we eat deer, rabbit, quail,
squirrel and even what ever the boys come home with.
Now for the story. my husband is a meat and potatoes with carrots kind of
guy. It was the end of Feb and there was very little in the bank not enough
to go grocery shopping. veggies in freezer. the deer was all gone. one week
to payday - ouch. prayed in frustration, God you know Steve wants a little
meat with these veggies. Well next morning, guess what fell off the Wampler truck - a
tom turkey huge boy - and guess what still alive. left him alone for a
while - he was walking and fought being caught. later in the afternoon a
neighbor called and said, Mechell there's a turkey on the road next to your
house you need to get him. Just told him don't tell the neighbors we are
down to road kill! He stated, God provides! Well he provided well - ate for a
week plus on that bird - he weighed over 50 pounds. well it wasn't a sheet
but, he provides and me and the family were extremely happy and thankful.
Mechell turner
------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:02:28 -0700
From: Marc /Cheryl Grenon <grenon@bc.sympatico.ca>
Vicki wrote:
> Are these fish still Biblically unclean? I thought the "unclean" food
ended
> with Peter's vision of the sheet that came down with all the animals and
God
> said all things could now be eaten.
Funnily enough, that was our family Bible reading last night. If you go
back and
read the passage (found in Acts chapter 10) the whole point of the sheet
coming down
was *not* to declare that all food was available for eating, but was an
illustration
that God used to show Peter that all people are not unclean. As a matter of
fact, I
don't know anywhere that the OT says that a nation was unclean purely on the
basis of
ethnicity. I think this was something added to the Law by the Jews which
God was
correcting. God was not teaching Peter about eating --He was teaching him
about
people.
I was reading through the book that Amy mentioned last night by Dr. Rex
Russell and
came across some interesting information that I thought I would share about
pork and
other unclean animals.
--Archeologist Jane Cahill, in examining the toilets of Jewish households in
Jerusalem found no parasites or infectious agents , but only pollen from the
many
fruits, vegetables and herbs they had eaten. A similar study of the
Egyptians who do
eat pork found wire worm, tape worms, and eggs from Schistosoma Trichinella
-- all of
which cause significant chronic diseases.
--In the US, 3 of 6 of the most common food-borne parasitic diseases of
humans are
associated with pork consumption. This includes toxoplasmosis, taeniasis,
or
cysticercosis (caused by the pork tape worm), or trichinellosis.
-- Swine are good incubators of toxic parasites and viruses -- although the
animal
doesn't usually appear to be ill while carrying these diseases. A
scientist at the
University of Giessen's Institute for virology in Germany showed in a study
of
worldwide influenza epidemics that pigs are the one animal that can serve as
a mixing
vessel for new influenza viruses that may seriously threaten world health.
If a pig is exposed to a human's DNA virus and then a bird's virus, the pig
mixes the
two viruses -- developing a new DNA virus that is often extremely lethal for
humans.
These viruses have already caused worldwide epidemics and destruction.
Virologists
have concluded that if we do not find a way to separate humans from pigs,
the world's
population is at risk. (I know they are predicting a flu pandemic similar to
the
Spanish flu that killed so many earlier this century -- CG)
-- The stomach of a pig is very acidic. Because of their tendencies to
gluttony,
their stomach acid becomes diluted due to the volume of food which allows
all kinds
of vermin to pass through this protective barrier. Parasites, bacteria,
viruses and
toxins an pass into the pig's flesh because of overeating. These toxins and
infectious agents can be passed on to humans when they eat a pig's flesh.
Other info concerning unclean animals:
-- The toxic effects of animal flesh of unclean animals on a growth culture
was
demonstrated in studies done by Dr. David Macht of Johns Hopkins University.
A
substance was classified as toxic if it slowed the culture's growth rate
below 75 %.
In each case the blood of the animal proved to be more toxic than its flesh.
The
lower the growth percentage of the culture, the more toxic the flesh. The
flesh of
all animals and birds designated as clean by God all tested as being
non-toxic. So
calves, deer,goat, oxen, sheep, geese, chicken, ducks, quail, swans, etc.
all tested
high while bears, pigs, dogs, rabbits, opossums, squirrels, horses, camels,
catfish,
shellfish, etc. tested low or toxic.
While some may believe that the food laws have been abrogated under the new
covenant, I for one, intend to observe them for health's sake. Pass the
turkey bacon
please.
Cheryl
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:51:48 -0500
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
Thanks Cheryl. I am really short of time today and you just answered mostly
what I was going to answer. I actually have those pages in the Russel book
marked for that purpose.
Y'all.… Jesus came to create a new covenant plan for SALVATION. For us to
be with GOD. Jesus' coming, from what I understand from my study, didn't do
anything to change God's natural laws that he set into motion at creation.
If he created some animals for eating and some animals for keeping the
Creation clean, how in heaven is Jesus' atonement for our sins to change
that?
We're not saying anything about laws that you have to follow for salvation.
I'm saying that it appears as though God gave his people laws to follow
*because* that's the way he created the world and he wanted to let them know
that so they could enjoy health and bounty that would be unknown by other
peoples. We have the Book that lists exactly everything we need to know
about how he created the world, both physically and spiritually. Everything
we need. Yes, we still live in a fallen world (Re: comment about X=Y not
always being true) so there are going to be variations on health... but
Allison, there's always going to be some toxin out there to contaminate a
body, isn't there? Can you deny that eating the purest, cleanest, most whole
foods and abstaining (fasting) from bad foods will create unbelievable
health?
And BTW, there is nothing about Vegetarianism in any of this. God gave
meat... the only thing unhealthy about the clean meats is the blood and
cover fat, which God did say in the Bible was unclean.
I could give you all the references, type in more, etc. But I really just
can't right now. I have too many other things that have come up. I certainly
did want to put the bug in your ear so that you could look more into it for
yourself and to consider adding to your teaching on diet, for Christian
classes. Rex Russel's book is available on Amazon.com for like $8, and Robin
Dix at www.aimforbetterhealth.com might still have some left at $5.50. It
is a deeply researched work, with full annotations and a nice index. He even
includes an appendix with listings of mail-order whole food sources for each
state.
I never really took the "clean/unclean" thing seriously until I had someone
show me, with research, that there was something to it. Since I've started
implementing the principles in my life, I've reaped incredible blessings of
health in myself and my family. It's so simple as to not see it without
someone pointing it out and "proving" it with medical studies and research
in addition to Biblical research. I'm very glad I got this book and I trust
that the Lord will continue to reveal things to me and bless me as I seek to
follow him and his design, whether it be in Childbirth (anyone remember a
time when they thought for sure that God cursed us with pain in
childbirth?), family planning, marital relationships, the church, or our
health.
I'm glad to have sparked some discussion on this. It's been a while since
we have all done much digging into any subject. <bg> I will still watch
eagerly for y'all's input. But I hope that some of you with questions will
choose to go ahead and read Russel's book before totally putting the ideas
off.
>While some may believe that the food laws have been abrogated under the
new
>covenant, I for one, intend to observe them for health's sake. Pass the
turkey bacon
>please.
>Cheryl
Hmmm... I was just thinking that a BLT would be good and wishing I had some
of that. <g>
Amy ~~~~~~ sending birth wishes and prayers your way~~~~~~~~
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:47:15 -0500
From: Allison Ratliff <births@home.com>
From: Allison Ratliff <births@home.com>
"Allison, there's always going to be some toxin out there to contaminate
a body, isn't there? Can you deny that eating the purest, cleanest, most
whole foods and abstaining (fasting) from bad foods will create
unbelievable health?"
This is true, but it may not eliminate hypoglycemia for all people. I
never said that a whole foods diet was not the best. We buy organic
meats and eat pretty well...not nearly enough greens of
course...sigh...my husband thinks corn is a vegetable. You inferred in
your post that if all people only ate whole foods, then this would be
eliminated, and that is not necessarily so. *That* was my point.
Allison
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Subject: Re: [accp] Brewer Nutrition Stuff
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:51:14 -0500
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
To: "Vicki" <babylady@rockford.com>, <accp@onelist.com>
From: "Jeff and Amy Jones" <mtnmama@geocities.com>
>So, what I really want to know, is chocolate a "clean" or "unclean" food?
I
>may have to become an atheist depending on the answer! HA!
LOL!!! This is an area where I depend on Grace... Just kidding. I told Jeff
that chocolate is just as legit as coffee, so we can each have our fix. <g>
If you think about it, they are both the same, both come from the seed of a
plant which is *definitely* clean.… the problem with coffee and chocolate
are that people tend to make them an "idol" .….
So I say chocolate is ok, in moderation, with fasts of it to keep it from
becoming an idol in my life...
Can anyone refute that? <g>
Amy
</g></g></mtnmama@geocities.com></accp@onelist.com></babylady@rockford.com></mtnmama@geocities.com></births@home.com></births@home.com></g></bg></mtnmama@geocities.com></grenon@bc.sympatico.ca></mrturner@vnet.net></babylady@rockford.com></momcare@cable-lynx.net></mamasong@ici.net></mtnmama@geocities.com></grenon@bc.sympatico.ca></ncc1700@juno.com>
